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[jsr360-observers] [jsr360-experts] Re: DTLS server support

  • From: Michael Lagally < >
  • To:
  • Subject: [jsr360-observers] [jsr360-experts] Re: DTLS server support
  • Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:50:13 +0200
  • List-id: <jsr360-experts.jsr360.java.net>

<html><head><base href="x-msg://101/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Thomas,<div><br></div><div>thanks for your comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that on the&nbsp;technical side there are other alternatives used in practice,&nbsp;</div><div>such as CoAP deployments over TLS.</div><div><br></div><div>We are concerned that the additional implementation effort for the DTLS server&nbsp;</div><div>adds more risk to the ME8 schedule than is acceptable and could put a risk on&nbsp;</div><div>the overall release.&nbsp;<br></div><div><br></div><div>Note that this extension does not only affect the specification, but also has to&nbsp;</div><div>be implemented in the reference implementation and also requires appropriate TCK tests.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Michael</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 22.10.2013, at 17:46, Lampart Thomas wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Well, it would be a massive inconvenience for anybody who needs DTLS server as there is no easy way to just add this functionality in your midlet.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">You would need a whole TLS stack (e.g. bounce castle) to do so. And then you have two TLS stacks in your system, both with their own mechanisms to handle certificates. Not nice.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">best regards<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp; Thomas<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Werner Keil [mailto:
      ]<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dienstag, 22. Oktober 2013 17:24<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href="mailto:
      " style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">
      </a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[jsr360-experts] Re: [jsr360-observers] DTLS server support<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Thomas,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Thanks for your input. Especially from a European/German perspective it makes sense, see the slighly different approach to privacy here and in other parts of the World (not just US<span>&lt;image001.gif&gt;</span>)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">As I mentioned, I'd hope if not in the Final release this could at least be done in an MR.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">JSRs like JCache dropped entire functionality like Transaction support from its spec and deferred it to at least an MR or future version, too. Without going into detail about that here now, it seems a slightly smaller step from adding this to a CLDC MR than what 107 plans for transactions, or do you see a massive impact/inconvenience for users and developers in our case?<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Werner<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Lampart Thomas &lt;<a href="mailto:
      " target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">
      </a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dear specleads, experts,</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">We have a different position there, because:</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">- Adoption of DTLS is not widespread<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Yes, maybe today in a consumer world. However when you look at M2M and for example CoAP or what OMA does with lightweight M2M you will find that the usage of UDP is very common there. And to secure this you will need DTLS.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>- For typical IoT and M2M use cases&nbsp;only the DTLS client side is needed<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I don’t agree. See next item.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<br>- In a typical scenario you would establish a regular server socket and<br>&nbsp; have the CLDC 8 application open a DTLS client connection to a DTLS server<br>&nbsp; that runs on a gateway<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">And you do not see Java ME8 on this gateway ? Actually we do. The gateway could be our module. It talks coAP/UDP over some short range radio on the one side and HTTPS on the other side over 2G/3G. In this use case we would be the DTLS server.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>- The implementation of a DTLS server is nontrivial<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I don’t think that this is more “nontrivial” than a TCP secure server. Sure it’s some extra effort.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Not adding this now but in the next release (whenever this will be) would be very unfortunate from our point of view.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Best regards</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp; Thomas</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Michael Lagally [mailto:<a href="mailto:
      " target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">
      </a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dienstag, 22. Oktober 2013 16:35<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href="mailto:
      " target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">
      </a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[jsr360-observers] [jsr360-experts] DTLS server support</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear JSR 360 EG members,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On a previous EG call It has been suggested to include support for a DTLS server into GCF.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">We discussed the DTLS server support internally quite extensively.<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 88, 203); "><br></span>The feedback we got was:<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 88, 203); "><br></span>- Adoption of DTLS is not widespread<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">- For typical IoT and M2M use cases&nbsp;only the DTLS client side is needed<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">- In a typical scenario you would establish a regular server socket and<br>&nbsp; have the CLDC 8 application open a DTLS client connection to a DTLS server<br>&nbsp; that runs on a gateway<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">- The implementation of a DTLS server is nontrivial<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Taking all this into account it is our position that it is unnecessary to add DTLS server support<br>to the current CLDC8 spec, rather consider it in a future version of the spec.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Michael+Roger<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: maroon; ">This message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressees and may contain confidential information. Any unauthorized use or disclosure, either whole or partial, is prohibited.<br>E-mails are susceptible to alteration. Our company shall not be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please delete it and notify the sender.<br>Although all reasonable efforts have been made to keep this transmission free from viruses, the sender will not be liable for damages caused by a transmitted virus</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div><br><hr><font face="Arial" color="Maroon" size="2">This message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressees and may contain confidential information. Any unauthorized use or disclosure, either whole or partial, is prohibited.<br>E-mails are susceptible to alteration. 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