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[jsr361-experts] Re: some remarks

  • From: Volker Bauche < >
  • To:
  • Subject: [jsr361-experts] Re: some remarks
  • Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 18:30:50 +0200

Hi Thomas,

thanks a lot for your quick replay.
Pls. find my comments inline.

BR-
Volker

Am 21.05.2013 16:38, schrieb Lampart Thomas:
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Hi Volker, all

 

@Volker: thanks for your feedback. Yes, please prepare the EDR!

Thanks.
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Further comments from my side below. I also added two new issues (13. and 14.).

 

Kind regards

  Thomas

 

 

 

 



Am 17.05.2013 17:16, schrieb Lampart Thomas:

 

 

1.) General: I am a bit surprised that there is no pdf available, just the Java docs. Is this the current style to do JSR specs ? 

Yes, many JSRs have javadocs only.

OK

If so then maybe the document structure needs some attention as I feel it is not so easy to actually read through the document. Where to start and where to end ?!

The start is the overview file. In the beginning, it has a list of (links to the) essential chapters being part of the spec. You can read them one by one. The APIs themselves can be accessed even more convenient in this form if you choose the frame presentation of the javadocs (compared to a "linear" pdf document). Then you have a field to your left listing all the packages and classes and you can navigate directly to the API you would like to read.

OK. But I still have to make sure to not miss any links in order to not miss any part of the “document”. Trying to get used to it ;-)

You'll find it convenient. It's much easier than searching in a 100+ pages pdf document. :-)
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2.) Overview: There is a bunch of TBDs and TODOs in the spec. Some of them should probably do not need to be tbd anymore ?! e.g.:
"The preferred forum for comments will be TBD.
Alternatively, comments may be sent to 
      
      ">
      ."

Yes, you are right of course. These TBD should be mostly obsolete in the meantime. I'll go through it in preparation of EDR (see above).

OK

 
3.) Overview: PCM and MIDI should not be a must if media support is chosen. Simple tone generation is often sufficient for many applications.

Ok, we can soften this requirement accordingly.
@All: If you have an opinion about this point, pls. let me know.
OK. that would be good.

 

 
4.) Overview: handling of input (e.g. keypad) should not depend on the presence of a display. Many applications have keys but no display.

How should the input from the keys be handled then? (I mean based on which API? Does it mean we need an API for processing key inputs independent on a graphical API?)

Well, the KeyListener doesn’t look too bad to me. The problem with it is that it is in the same package as Display, right ? Or are there other dependencies ?

Yes, the key listener is part of the lui package. The package is not bug, the largest part is of course the Display class. If you find it acceptable to implement the lui package (with a then even smaller dummy Display class) for having an API to handle key events. we can keep it this way. If not, we will have to find a way to extract the key functionality from this package.
Alternatives would be to put it into the event package (but my guess is that you would not like this - see below :-) ) or have an extra package for it.
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5.) General: It would be useful to denote the optional classes also in the class description. This way the reader could get a clearer picture which classes might not be there at all in a device

Optionality is package based. Means an API is implemented or not (while dependency between APIs has to be taken into account). Once a package become part of the implementation, all classes in this package MUST be implemented (at least in a "dummy" mode). Optinality on class level is inpracticable.

OK. understood.

 
6.) javax.microedition.cellular: I do have the feeling that this package somehow overlaps with the AccessPoint in CLDC8/GCF. Please clarify how these two function complexes interact and why they are separated in this way.

It does not overlap. The interactiopn between those two is well-defined.
But we have Roger as one of the CLDC Specleads in our EG.
@Roger: Could you explain the interaction between AcceddPoint and Cellular to the EG a bit, pls?

Yes, please.

 
7.) javax.microedition.cellular: I assume that this is also an optional package, right ?

Yes, and it is declared as such. Where do you miss this information?

Optionality on package level is clear now.

 
8.) javax.microedition.event: A general question about this package: why such a generic event package ? In the past several classes had some listener functionality and they received "their" events through this listener.  To me it seems a bit confusing to have such a generic event mechanism which then again contains events of all sorts. 

Actually the more generic solution was inteded to ease the confusion. :-)
We have a lot of events to be handled, and it makes sense to handle them in a unified way. The listener concept is still there, it has just made more generic, also in order to keep the way open for future extension.

I understand the idea now, still I don’t like it. I think this (certainly growing) list of events of all different sorts IS confusing.

I don't think so. The more generic concept is necessary as we have to handle a much broader variety of events than we used to have in IMP-NG times. We can check whether there is a way to somehow group the event inorder to make the concept more comprehensive.
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And a big drawback probably also is that you do only have one type of callback functions ? What about parameters some event might have ?

There are much better possibilities to transport parameters and other information in this concept. The callback function accepts a parameter of type Event. In this event object an unlimited number of info can be transported. By checking the API again in order to write this answer, I got aware that I've mixed up the "message and information object" each event has with it's source (this happened as a side effect of making the Event class a subclass of java.util.EventObject from CLDC-8. I'll correct this and send out a new spec version soon.
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9.) javax.microedition.event.power: the previous question leads directly to this question: wouldn't it be nicer to have PowerManager class with a Listener instead of PowerManager being a part of an event package ? For me this just seems to be the wrong way around ?

See above. The whole power management has to parts: handling of (power management related) events - it seems to be a logical consequence to insert this part into the general event concept. And the power manager to actively receive informations and perform settings for the power management.

This architecture still feels very strange to me. Especially when I envision where this is supposed to end up. We will have various functionalities as javax.microedition.event.xxxx just because this functionalities uses some events ?!

No. The reason why power management has an extra package is that it includes some additional functionality like the PowerManager, and an implementation that uses events but is not interested in power management should have the chance to implement the event mechanism without the whole power mangement it won't need.
In general, all kinds of events can be handled just with the event package.
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A javax.microedition.power with the PowerManager and a PowerManagerListener would make far more sense to me.

As a matter of fact, you have this. It is just a subpackage of the event package because it uses the event mechanism for power events.
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10.) PowerManager: good idea to have such a class, but at least for the use cases I know there are some issues here. E.g. a device can never signal a sleep state to a midlet, because the moment it would do so the device can not be in sleep state. 

This is a question of implementation. The system could use the notification in order to ANNOUNCE it is going to sleep and wait long enough to give the application receiving the notification to still display a message "Going to sleep" or something.

Yes and No ;-) Of course as long as the events are not clearly defined any implementation can do (implement) whatever it wants. But if we want to handle it this way why having a standard API at all ? Everybody who needs this can implement its own API as it fits. My understanding of a standard API would be that we have a clearly defined (subset) of power management which can then be implemented on various devices in the exactly same way.

Well, the API will be unique for all devices. What a single state means for a certain device is very hardware-dependent, so it will be difficult to rule a unique definition of the states for all platforms. A good example is your own retention against POWER_STATE_REGULATED_LOW_POWER below. For your devices it may make no sense, for others it is very important. The little miracle we have to create with this profile is it to create an API everyone in this very heterogeneous field can live with. The solution can only be a good balance of ruling (e.g. by determining classes and methods with fixed signatures) and some degrees of freedom (like the interpretation what such a state in particular means).
As a consequence, one implementer can decide, that going to "SLEEP" mode allows some delay in order to give an application the chance to display a message to a user, while another one (e.g. one without any display) does not need this display and just goes to sleep.
And you can implement "POWER_STATE_REGULATED_LOW_POWER" the same way as "POWER_STATE_FULL_POWER" as it makes no difference in your implementation (and POWER_STATE_REGULATED_LOW_POWER will probably never be checked for in your applications), while another implementation may emphasize the difference between sthose states.
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Actually choosing a state might be more important for a midlet than getting reports. After all the midlet is the master in many application, so it tells the system what to do. 

The PowerManager allows to do so using the setPowerState method.

OK

Btw. Where do these defined power states (e.g. POWER_STATE_REGULATED_LOW_POWER) come from ? I think we will need some further discussion here.

Those states have been created after evaluating the requests from many different potential users of the API. Not all states may have a meaning for any device.

See above. Is this a good idea for a standard API ?

Yes :-) (see above).
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11.) javax.microedition.media: where is it ?

The intention is to point here to a defined audio subset of JSR-135. THis is still under clarification. In caser this makes problems, the definiton of the audio subpackage will be copied from JSR-135 into this spec (as it has been done for IMP-NG). In any case the definition is identical to the audio subpackage of JSR-135.

OK. IMP-NG audio package is fine.

 
12.) Application Provisioning: Whats the UAProf good for ? Please make it optional if someone really needs this. For device identification its often sufficient to put something meaningful in the "User-Agent" field.

Ok, will have a look at this again.

OK. Thanks.

 

 

13.) I remember a discussion with Oracle some time ago if and why we need “suites”. I see the suites are still there. Isn’t one application per .jar enough ? Do we really need them ? I don’t think so.

Yes, there have been indeed plans to remove suites. The main issue with this was backward compatibility with IMP(-NG) and the consequences for the security framework. Your implementors will love the MEEP EG for keeping  suites as this way they can use the implementation model they have once done for IMP-NG without changes.
An implementation that will in general have only one application per jar has no significant overhead with suites (as a suite can of course also conisit of only one application), others that want use advantages like the common access to one RMS by several applications within a suite can still use it.
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14.) a question about optionality and compatibility: on the “optionality and compatibility” page of the spec it says several times: Applications requiring the implementation of the xxxx optional package in order to be able to run, MUST declare this request using the MIDlet-Dependency-. Now when I think about an IMP-NG application as it is, this application would not have this attribute. Still it could be able to run IF my MEEP implementation is IMP-NG compliant. So is my assumption correct that these MUSTs in respect to attributes is only true if my MicroEdition-Profile attribute of the application descriptor says “MEEP-1.0”. If this attribute says IMP-NG the MEEP implementation would behave differently and either accept the midlet if it is IMP-NG compliant or reject it, but not check any dependencies attributes, right ?

We can think about replacing the MUST by a SHOULD.
If you look at MIDP, there is the MIDlet-Dependency-<n> attribute used in order to declare dependency of certain external JSRs such as JSR-120. An application should declare this dependency as this makes sure that it is only installed if the device implements JSR-120. As far as I know, the applications also installs and runs fine without this attribute AS LONG AS JSR-120 is defined. Otherwise, it will crash with a ClassNotFoundException or something unapprpriate (I'll doublecheck this).
The dependency names for the optional packages had to be introduced because due to the optionality it is not a-priori clear whether a certain packae is available for an implementation or not. An implementation that claims to be backwar compatible to IMP-NG has of course to implement at least all packages being mandatory in IMP-NG (see the chapter about Profile Sets), and then all IMP-NG MIDlets should work fine.

BR-
Volker
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